2D 3D-Blender 3D-Mixed Character Design help/ Tutorial (Zbrush, Art)

[ZiejaPropsOriginal]

Hi. So i'm ZiejaProps and I need your help.
I need to be able to make high Quality Zbrush characters but courses and online tutorials ain't helping.

Why? because they only give instructions and rarely explain. I've gone through a lot of tutorials and courses even and all of them are basically.
"So you block out. then you refine like this. add details. Done"

And each Time I went to get help I only got the same answers
- Use reference
- Block out
- Stay Low Poly
- Practice for Many Years.
Done

My issue is the fact that these kind of explanations aren't very intuitive and don't teach you nothing.
So that's the issue. now what's the solution?

well with the help of everyone here I was hoping that we could make our very own education thread. where people come in with their character issues whether DAZ, Blender or in my Case Zbrush and maybe even Real life Traditional art. and we as a whole give them ACTUALLY HELPFUL tips that ain't broad terms just thrown around.

Like we actually give a good insight. instead of "eh practice" or "Use ref lol"
we go "the eyes are the problem. they don't protrude like that instead they go back and the forehead is too big, check your proportions using 8 Chins"
something like that.

So yeah I hope my pitch made sense and I hope to get some insight from this.
Thank you

 

[ZiejaPropsOriginal]

Who does this concern? well everybody who's an artist or interested in Character or art in general.
why should you help? we can just use this thread as a repertoire and resource for not only us but also people who stumble upon this thread in the future needing help with their arts, games or sculpts.

I hope you guys like my incentive...if anything's wrong just tell me.

 

[ZiejaPropsOriginal]

This is my current level as of today 4 July.
Can I get some input and feedback from you all?
also advices which will not only help me but also anyone who visits this thread in the future looking for help with their own issues?

Any help is much appreciated thank you.

 

[ZiejaPropsOriginal]

 

[ZiejaPropsOriginal]

I feel like turning this thread into a personal repository and feedback center where I can monitor my progress as well as help anybody else whose on the same level as me by allowing them to track my progress and learn from my mistakes.
If there's any issue about this just notify me.

In any Case I welcome anyone who wants to participate.
much appreciated. x

 

[BLucy]

Hey, I just saw this and, even though I'm no expert, I thought maybe I could give my 2 cents, as I often find myself in a similar situation.

As for the general tips you mentioned, I need to say that, although they are pretty generalistic, they are helpful (with limitations, of course). When I started, I didn't understand why I needed to block out if I could stretch and deform things however I wanted or why I needed a reference if I need what I wanted or I had a photo on my phone or something like that, but when I started usuing them it was a huge help; I went from having to stretch and add polys constantly for it to not look like a mass of vertices poking out and being frustrated because it looked off to having enough surface that looks smooth and detailed without having to keep adding to the poly count and keeping the likeness of the model on point. It was a pain in the ass having to take the time to learn how to do it, but would never go back to not using them. Stay low poly is... subjective, if you will need a model with a low poly count (for example, for games) and can do it without retopology, then go for it (retopo is another pain in the ass), other wise, do as many as you need, of course, if you go to crazy numbers, it can become laggy, but you don't need to be constantly watching it. And practice, it's the most general tip, but you do improve with practice.

Having said that, I don't know what your process is (and I'm also a bit rusty with zBrush), but I always start with 2 spheres, one on top of the other and shape (mainly the bottom one) into the shape of the face I'm going for ( if I want a longer face, a squareish jaw or rounder cuter cheeks), then I add other spheres (or cube) for the nose and ears and I roughly model them into their simpler form. All of this I do it with deforming tools that sort of pull or stretch, not those that draw smaller details like crease or build up like clay strips (I know this are blender brushes, but I imagine there are equivalents in zBrush). Then I start building the structure of the face, getting smaller, like defining the area of the eyes (the bone edge of the eyes), the cheeks, the chin, the jaw... I don't carve the eyes out of that base because I do characters for games and animations, so I need them to move, but if you just want a render or a 3d print then I imagine it'd be fine. After that I go to smaller parts to define the nostrils, the lips (I block out the lips previously too, but not always), the brow bone and frown,the eyes, the weird shapes of the ear... and after that I add the small details (the iris if I want it 3d instead of painted, the creases on the lips, the nostrils again, if there are any skin marks or scars, anything that need to be polished or sharpened). Basically is going from big to small with every part of the head (or everypart of the body) and the tools go the same, from bigger brush "strokes" like pushing or sinking things in the begining to creating creases, pinching and such that are for smaller details when you have more polys and it looks organic, unlike, for example pushing, that you have tu use with very low strength or it'll create a big contrastbetween where it was used and the parts left outside of the brush.

It's kind of difficult to explain it through text and between different programs, but I tried to sort of simplify it.


These are one of the first heads I started modeling without blocking them out and you can see how bad they looked, specially the noses and ears, or how many polys are on the lips in the second as I tried to refine it a bit while the rest still has bigger polys... it just looks bad.

I also have this one that I started without any reference because it was a simple design of mine and I knew how I wanted it look until I realised I never wanted a potatoe and abondoned it.

As for the ones you shared, I did some annotations hoping to help:


(yeah, it's basically the same note, but I could only use paint and I wanted it to be seen clearer...). Mostly is the eyes area, taking them and the frown higher in the face and making the frown less deep woud help. Parhaps defining a bit more the line of the jaw (as right now it seems on the profile to go in a straight line from the chin to the back of the head), thining the neck and cranium.

I don't know how helpful it'll be in other programs, but I imagine the general process is the same, just different brushes, but one of the tutorials I followed was this one from Aram Art (it's just the first part, but there are more):

You must be registered to see the links

I hope it helps and to hear more from you.

 

[ZiejaPropsOriginal]

Hey, I just saw this and, even though I'm no expert, I thought maybe I could give my 2 cents, as I often find myself in a similar situation.

As for the general tips you mentioned, I need to say that, although they are pretty generalistic, they are helpful (with limitations, of course). When I started, I didn't understand why I needed to block out if I could stretch and deform things however I wanted or why I needed a reference if I need what I wanted or I had a photo on my phone or something like that, but when I started usuing them it was a huge help; I went from having to stretch and add polys constantly for it to not look like a mass of vertices poking out and being frustrated because it looked off to having enough surface that looks smooth and detailed without having to keep adding to the poly count and keeping the likeness of the model on point. It was a pain in the ass having to take the time to learn how to do it, but would never go back to not using them. Stay low poly is... subjective, if you will need a model with a low poly count (for example, for games) and can do it without retopology, then go for it (retopo is another pain in the ass), other wise, do as many as you need, of course, if you go to crazy numbers, it can become laggy, but you don't need to be constantly watching it. And practice, it's the most general tip, but you do improve with practice.

Having said that, I don't know what your process is (and I'm also a bit rusty with zBrush), but I always start with 2 spheres, one on top of the other and shape (mainly the bottom one) into the shape of the face I'm going for ( View attachment 3863451 if I want a longer face, a squareish jaw or rounder cuter cheeks), then I add other spheres (or cube) for the nose and ears and I roughly model them into their simpler form. All of this I do it with deforming tools that sort of pull or stretch, not those that draw smaller details like crease or build up like clay strips (I know this are blender brushes, but I imagine there are equivalents in zBrush). Then I start building the structure of the face, getting smaller, like defining the area of the eyes (the bone edge of the eyes), the cheeks, the chin, the jaw... I don't carve the eyes out of that base because I do characters for games and animations, so I need them to move, but if you just want a render or a 3d print then I imagine it'd be fine. After that I go to smaller parts to define the nostrils, the lips (I block out the lips previously too, but not always), the brow bone and frown,the eyes, the weird shapes of the ear... and after that I add the small details (the iris if I want it 3d instead of painted, the creases on the lips, the nostrils again, if there are any skin marks or scars, anything that need to be polished or sharpened). Basically is going from big to small with every part of the head (or everypart of the body) and the tools go the same, from bigger brush "strokes" like pushing or sinking things in the begining to creating creases, pinching and such that are for smaller details when you have more polys and it looks organic, unlike, for example pushing, that you have tu use with very low strength or it'll create a big contrastbetween where it was used and the parts left outside of the brush.

It's kind of difficult to explain it through text and between different programs, but I tried to sort of simplify it.

View attachment 3863481 View attachment 3863482
These are one of the first heads I started modeling without blocking them out and you can see how bad they looked, specially the noses and ears, or how many polys are on the lips in the second as I tried to refine it a bit while the rest still has bigger polys... it just looks bad.
View attachment 3863487
I also have this one that I started without any reference because it was a simple design of mine and I knew how I wanted it look until I realised I never wanted a potatoe and abondoned it.

As for the ones you shared, I did some annotations hoping to help:
View attachment 3863491 View attachment 3863492 View attachment 3863493

(yeah, it's basically the same note, but I could only use paint and I wanted it to be seen clearer...). Mostly is the eyes area, taking them and the frown higher in the face and making the frown less deep woud help. Parhaps defining a bit more the line of the jaw (as right now it seems on the profile to go in a straight line from the chin to the back of the head), thining the neck and cranium.

I don't know how helpful it'll be in other programs, but I imagine the general process is the same, just different brushes, but one of the tutorials I followed was this one from Aram Art (it's just the first part, but there are more):

You must be registered to see the links

I hope it helps and to hear more from you.

Yo Yo YO WHOA!! BRO!! DUDE!!
THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY PHENOMENAL!!.
like. Holy shit not only did you give concise instructions but acknowledged what I need, properly assessed my level and acted accordingly.

HOLY SHIT THANK YOU. Like FR that text had so much info and that annotation was sooo helpful. it made it truly obvious where the flaws where.

Are you a Teacher?? cause you a damn good one. Much better than ANYBODY I've dealt with before. I hope more people see your text and get help from it.

--
Right topic Change. I have a request.
I took a break from 3D for burn out and put Zbrush aside for the time being.
But I have a question. can you spot me later eventually when I return to it?

Of course I'm not asking for a lot and won't burden you but i'd love to have you around and learn more from you and hopefully teach you about stuff too.

But yeah it's okay if you don't want to.
--
in any case i'm grateful and appreciate you took the time to reply. although I assume it wasn't easy to type all that lol!

Thank you Lucy!!

 

[BLucy]

Yo Yo YO WHOA!! BRO!! DUDE!!
THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY PHENOMENAL!!.
like. Holy shit not only did you give concise instructions but acknowledged what I need, properly assessed my level and acted accordingly.

HOLY SHIT THANK YOU. Like FR that text had so much info and that annotation was sooo helpful. it made it truly obvious where the flaws where.

Are you a Teacher?? cause you a damn good one. Much better than ANYBODY I've dealt with before. I hope more people see your text and get help from it.

--
Right topic Change. I have a request.
I took a break from 3D for burn out and put Zbrush aside for the time being.
But I have a question. can you spot me later eventually when I return to it?

Of course I'm not asking for a lot and won't burden you but i'd love to have you around and learn more from you and hopefully teach you about stuff too.

But yeah it's okay if you don't want to.
--
in any case i'm grateful and appreciate you took the time to reply. although I assume it wasn't easy to type all that lol!

Thank you Lucy!!

Hey, no problem, I don't check f95 that often, but you can write me whenever you want and I'll try to help if I can, I'm happy it was useful, starting things can be hard!

 

[ZiejaPropsOriginal]

Hey, no problem, I don't check f95 that often, but you can write me whenever you want and I'll try to help if I can, I'm happy it was useful, starting things can be hard!

Heyyy Sensei!!
it's been a while. right, so in the meantime I've been kinda busy with some stuff since I was pretty burned out with Zbrush and 3D overall
but now I'm ready to throw down again and it ain't looking Good.

Right so here's a sculpt I made.
Let's call it Raven V1
As you can see it's pretty awful.

Here's what I ask:

- Is the issue similar to what you've seen in the Last one?
am I making the same mistakes again.
- Do you see progress even if just a bit?

But most importantly.
Can you like be my coach just for fun? if you agree that is.

in November it will be 1 Year since I started using Zbrush and learning Art altogether. Prior to that I had absolutely NO EXPERIENCE Whatsoever.


In any case I appreciate your help Lucy, Thank you!
But yeah in these following months I'd Like to make progress and reach my goal and I'd like to have you about once in a while just checking in.

 

[ZiejaPropsOriginal]

As for any other viewers. HI!! Welcome to my thread.
I'd like to have you onboard and help you learn too.
or just witness my show.

In any case anybody is welcome to join and would be appreciated.
Thank you!!

 

[BLucy]

Heyyy Sensei!!

Hi Zieja!

That head is looking pretty good, but as it's not a generic one (I assume you were trying to sculpt the Raven reference), getting the likeness on point it's a bit tricky, but there's definetly improvement since the last one; the position of the eyes is better, the eyebrow-forehead area looks also better, aswell as the top of the head. The nose looks great, more detailed.

I do have some tips howsoever, some are so it looks more like the picture (this can happen after workin for some time on something, you've looked at it for so long that you no longer see as you did in the begining but rather as the little corrections you've been making, so it's good to leave it for a bit (the afternoon, the next day, etc) and return to it with a fresh mind) and others are anatomy related, though they may not be 100% correct as the head is not a front shot and may be distorted in that perspective, but it's fine for the gist of it.



As I said, the shape of the side of the head may be different in that shot than in the real sculpture, but I added it anyway.
The reference is stylized, so specially the eyes should be pushed more in that direction, the reference has sharper eyes, aswell as the eyebrows that go lower. The nose looks better than the previous one you sent, but Raven's nose tip and nostrils are shorter (in height, not depth) and her mouth's corners are turned downwards and the general line of the mouth is also pointing down more:



These were in reference to the picture of Raven, but more general fixes are related to anatomy and developing the 3d vision (not sure how it's called in english). I started with drawing before I stated with sculpting, but there's no need to be a master at painting for these:



This is an exercise to trace over faces the changes of planes you see (more like those in the 2nd row; the changing of areas in the face that are looking forward or to the sides and upwards or downwards) this is very useful in painting for the lighting, but in sculpting it can help you settle the simple anatomy and the basic shapes of a face (although it can be done with the whole body too). Tracing over a refence picture can also help when sculpting it as the simpler and more defined lines give you better reference and guide than just the shading, in fact, if you see any stone masonery or wood carving videos, they often paint over the blocks the side and front views before start sculpting:


This is a quick tracing, but it's just to show how the shapes of the anatomy fit in both faces, eventhough they have different features.

(

You must be registered to see the links

You must be registered to see the links

these are just examples using painted lines as guides, here are more: this last one represents the process very well, approaching it from big strokes or blocks getting smaller and more detailled progressively, there's no point in sculpting, for example, the wrinkles in the forehead if you still haven't defined the frown, the eyes, the nose... and the tools you use for those wrinkles can't be the same you use for the first steps where you need to take out big chunks of material, but I'm repeating myself as this was already in my first post).


That's more or less what I've seen. I'm not sure I can be anyone's coach on anything, if you post things, I can give you some tips on it or bounce out ideas, but beyond that I'm really out of my capacity, so I'll try to check up from time to time, but I can't say when that'll be, sorry , but I hoped I this helped!

 

[ZiejaPropsOriginal]

Hi Zieja!

That head is looking pretty good, but as it's not a generic one (I assume you were trying to sculpt the Raven reference), getting the likeness on point it's a bit tricky, but there's definetly improvement since the last one; the position of the eyes is better, the eyebrow-forehead area looks also better, aswell as the top of the head. The nose looks great, more detailed.

I do have some tips howsoever, some are so it looks more like the picture (this can happen after workin for some time on something, you've looked at it for so long that you no longer see as you did in the begining but rather as the little corrections you've been making, so it's good to leave it for a bit (the afternoon, the next day, etc) and return to it with a fresh mind) and others are anatomy related, though they may not be 100% correct as the head is not a front shot and may be distorted in that perspective, but it's fine for the gist of it.

View attachment 3936084
View attachment 3936083
As I said, the shape of the side of the head may be different in that shot than in the real sculpture, but I added it anyway.
The reference is stylized, so specially the eyes should be pushed more in that direction, the reference has sharper eyes, aswell as the eyebrows that go lower. The nose looks better than the previous one you sent, but Raven's nose tip and nostrils are shorter (in height, not depth) and her mouth's corners are turned downwards and the general line of the mouth is also pointing down more:

View attachment 3936122 View attachment 3936123

These were in reference to the picture of Raven, but more general fixes are related to anatomy and developing the 3d vision (not sure how it's called in english). I started with drawing before I stated with sculpting, but there's no need to be a master at painting for these:

View attachment 3936135 View attachment 3936136
View attachment 3936141 View attachment 3936150
This is an exercise to trace over faces the changes of planes you see (more like those in the 2nd row; the changing of areas in the face that are looking forward or to the sides and upwards or downwards) this is very useful in painting for the lighting, but in sculpting it can help you settle the simple anatomy and the basic shapes of a face (although it can be done with the whole body too). Tracing over a refence picture can also help when sculpting it as the simpler and more defined lines give you better reference and guide than just the shading, in fact, if you see any stone masonery or wood carving videos, they often paint over the blocks the side and front views before start sculpting:

View attachment 3936172
This is a quick tracing, but it's just to show how the shapes of the anatomy fit in both faces, eventhough they have different features.

(

You must be registered to see the links

You must be registered to see the links

these are just examples using painted lines as guides, here are more: View attachment 3936244 View attachment 3936245 this last one represents the process very well, approaching it from big strokes or blocks getting smaller and more detailled progressively, there's no point in sculpting, for example, the wrinkles in the forehead if you still haven't defined the frown, the eyes, the nose... and the tools you use for those wrinkles can't be the same you use for the first steps where you need to take out big chunks of material, but I'm repeating myself as this was already in my first post).


That's more or less what I've seen. I'm not sure I can be anyone's coach on anything, if you post things, I can give you some tips on it or bounce out ideas, but beyond that I'm really out of my capacity, so I'll try to check up from time to time, but I can't say when that'll be, sorry , but I hoped I this helped!

OMG LUCY HIII!!
As effective as always.
The insight you gave was very informative and I didn't really think Tracing it and using drawing would help so much in properly laying the foundation. it makes sense though. once you get the drawing you understand where everything should go then you do the steps showcased in the Old geezer picture to slowly build up.

Anyway I really Appreciate that you answered. I felt kinda bad and thought you left and forgot.
in any Case I'm very grateful you took the time to answer back and I REALLY hope that somebody else thanks you too because your teaching is spectacular.

you have a way of teaching the basics in a very indepth manner and far more informative than "blockout and use ref lol"

I'm very grateful for your reply and I'm use what I learned to try and be better.
Notably

- Draw first. understand where everything is going to be going
- Overlay the drawing on top of your sculpt to bring out the problems
- Progressively go to your final form. not just block out.
rather focus on the main shapes and how they go along with each other to make sure the proportions are there THEN you move on to details. This makes more sense than just Block out.
- "Develop 3D Vision" I ran into this issue earlier and called it the artist sense and perspective. but yeah It's basically the understanding of Depth and the opposite of the image being flat and lifeless
- Trace over real life picture to build your Artist sense or "3D vision"

Thank you Lucy